For 11 years, Johnson & Johnson has been playing out what’s called the ghoul defense in the legal business. That’s where you delay paying people money, that they should be paid for the injury and suffering that you’ve caused them, and you wait until they die. Mike Papantonio is joined by attorney Andy Birchfield to explain what’s happening.
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Transcript:
*This transcript was generated by a third-party transcription software company, so please excuse any typos.
Mike Papantonio: For 11 years, Johnson & Johnson has been playing out what’s called the ghoul defense in the legal business. That’s where you delay paying people money, that they should be paid for the injury and suffering that you’ve caused them, and you wait until they die. Here’s why. Because if you wait long enough and they die, the case is worth only about 25% of what it would be when they’re alive. And that’s what this company’s been doing for 11 years, along with some really, really bad things. I’ve got Andy Birchfield with me today, and Andy is the person that for 11 years, has been fighting these thugs. And I wanted to bring him on and tell you just how ugly this story is. Andy, you’ve heard me talk about the ghoul defense. You certainly are aware of it. We’ve seen other companies do it. The asbestos industry, for example, was known for the ghoul defense. That’s what they’re doing here, isn’t it? It’s one of the things they’re doing.
Andy Birchfield: Absolutely. They’ve taken the tobacco playbook, war of attrition, just like you described, Pap. But they are trying, J&J is trying to rewrite that last chapter. In the tobacco industry, asbestos industry, they were successful in doing that. This scorched earth war of attrition. They were able to do that for a long time. Then it caught up with them. I mean, the tobacco industry ended up with over a $200 billion settlement.
Mike Papantonio: This is something that, it is kind of thing they teach in MBA school. Now, they may not call it the ghoul defense. But when the MBA student is learning about how do you do these ugly little things, this is one of the things you do. And it wouldn’t surprise me that if they, if Johnson & Johnson gets away with this, they’ll have a whole course on how to go about doing this. They’ve already been teaching it. First of all, I think the worst thing about it, and people miss in here, is how bad the economic damages are for somebody along with the fact they’re gonna lose their life, just having to fight to stay alive, the economics of that, somebody who has ovarian cancer. Talk about that a little bit.
Andy Birchfield: Pap, that’s one of the most egregious aspects of this. J&J, they’re filing bankruptcy and they’re doing it, they’re using it as a weapon. But so many of the families of their victims are having to go into bankruptcy in a legitimate way because of just the enormous medical costs that are involved here. So, on the average.
Mike Papantonio: I’ve seen the medical cost being as high as a million and a half dollars a year.
Andy Birchfield: Oh, yeah.
Mike Papantonio: That’s just to stay alive. That doesn’t mean, hey, we’re gonna cure you. That’s just so mommy and sister, they can stay alive. Isn’t that, is that accurate?
Andy Birchfield: Yeah. And so, yes, the medical costs can often exceed a million dollars, even a million and a half, close to $2 million. But one of the things that we have seen, and we’ve had experts look at, okay, what is the cost? The real cost? And if you have someone that is diagnosed at stage three or stage four, those medical costs typically exceed a million dollars. But if you have someone that’s diagnosed later in life in their seventies or eighties, and they are stage one, that can be 30, $40,000. But the weighted average across the entire spectrum. Someone that’s diagnosed at early age, at stage four, to someone that’s diagnosed late in life at a stage one, the weighted average is over $220,000 just for the medical cost.
Mike Papantonio: Wow. Okay. So here you have lawyers that have bought into the idea of Johnson. They’re just, they’re pals. They’re friends with Johnson & Johnson. They’re plaintiff’s lawyers who do what we do and they’ve been made a promise that if you’ll go along with this, we’re gonna do all these things for you. And rather than putting their client up front and saying what’s best for that client, their thought process is, what’s best for me? What’s best for my law firm? What’s best for how much money can I make as a lawyer? And it’s an ugly story. Talk about that a little bit. Am I overstating that, or is that how you see it?
Andy Birchfield: No, it’s the ghoul defense. It is that war of attrition and lawyers are feeling the pressure, and there are clients that are strung out and they need money. They need a settlement to pay those medical costs. But we’re seeing J&J use that and use that pressure on plaintiffs and plaintiff’s law firm. But Pap, one of the things that is so encouraging to me, and you and I have, we have done this together making appeals to lawyers to stand firm, because this is a tactic. This is a strategy that J&J has engaged in that will undermine our civil justice system. And we have law firms, we have law firms that are standing firm with us.
Mike Papantonio: Oh, the list of lawyers, matter of fact, we’ll run ’em here on the screen. Baron & Budd, Motley Rice, Seeger Weiss, TorHoerman, I mean, huge, some of the best lawyers in America that are saying, this is wrong. So let’s get back to why it’s wrong. It’s wrong because first of all, this is not a company that should even be considering bankruptcy. It’s a $450 billion company. But they’re using that thing called the Texas Two Step and the Texas Two Step is, let me figure out a way to kill a bunch of people by taking a risk with my product, whether it’s a pharmaceutical, whatever it is, let me go kill a bunch of people, make a big profit, take that big profit and give it to all the CEOs and management. Let them take that profit home and then go to bankruptcy court and say, we don’t have enough money to pay all these claims. Isn’t that kind of Texas Two Step?
Andy Birchfield: Yeah. They take a, a shell company, it’s just a shell game. They take a shell company, they put all of their liabilities in that one shell company through the Texas Two Step, and then they put that shell company in bankruptcy. And Johnson & Johnson, the $400 billion company, they just keep rocking along. They’re not impacted at all.
Mike Papantonio: Well, what’s happening to their shares, though? Their shares have got to be suffering from this, is it? I mean, I’m seeing, it’s definitely a decline. It’s a gradual decline. Why wouldn’t they get this solved?
Andy Birchfield: That’s a perplexing question. It doesn’t make sense. Because not only are they hurting the victims and the victim’s families, but they’re hurting their shareholders. I mean, their price is deflated. If they would just act as a responsible corporate company and make good to their victims, their stock prices would recover.
Mike Papantonio: Well, at this point, first, what do they know? They know overwhelming science shows that yes, ovarian cancer is caused by their product. Huge study that came out called the Sister Study. They said, no question, this causes ovarian cancer. They know that. And then they say, well, no, they deny that. And, so the point is, the only thing you can conclude as you look at this story is to say, let’s wait till a bunch of women die. The more women that die from ovarian cancer, the better for us. So let’s just dig our heels in and let ’em die. And so at that point, you pay 25 to 30% less, excuse me, 70% less.
Andy Birchfield: Exactly.
Mike Papantonio: And to be able to make this go away. Okay. But what you’re really pursuing right now is the fraud of the bankruptcy. The whole bankruptcy process is a fraud. A, they’re a $450 billion company. B, they shouldn’t be in bankruptcy to begin with. C, two bankruptcy courts have already said, no, this is not going to qualify as bankruptcy. One of ’em said, yes, appellate court embarrassed him, embarrassed this bankruptcy judge. Said, what in the hell are you talking about granting these people bankruptcy? Now, this is a New Jersey company. This is what’s so crazy. It’s a New Jersey company who is shopping for a bankruptcy judge in Texas. Now, give us the story of Texas bankruptcy, a law as it exists today. What’s going on with those judges in Texas? How ugly is it in Texas with these bankruptcy judges that they’re shopping for?
Andy Birchfield: Yeah. Well, in Texas, you just had a bankruptcy judge there that had to resign, is facing a possible criminal indictment now because, just of the corruption that was going on in bankruptcy, but it goes back further, Pap. They filed their first bankruptcy in 2021, and they went to North Carolina. New Jersey company, moved to Texas to divide their company into two pieces. Took the Shell company, moved it to North Carolina, because that was their favorite spot. They filed in North Carolina. The North Carolina bankruptcy judge said, no, transferred it to New Jersey. So they filed their first bankruptcy in North Carolina. When that case got thrown out, like you were talking about by the Third Circuit Court of Appeals, then they filed their second bankruptcy in New Jersey. Now they’re getting ready for their third bankruptcy, and they’re going to Texas to file it.
Mike Papantonio: All the while waiting for more women to die. That’s the headline here.
Andy Birchfield: That’s it.
Mike Papantonio: Johnson & Johnson wants as many women to die early on as possible because it costs them less money to settle the case. So they’ve done it for 11 years. They’ve already been told by two bankruptcy processes, no, you can’t do it. So they’re looking for some numb nut judge, bankruptcy judge in Texas, who, by the way, the bankruptcy process in Texas has a horrible reputation because of the indictments that you’re talking about, that they’re just in the process. So that’s where they’re going for their new bankruptcy. Right?
Andy Birchfield: That’s exactly right. They haven’t said where in Texas, but they’re going to Texas. That’s part of their plan. One of, you mentioned that scandal in Texas. But one of the things that’s most disgusting to me about that is just the way that the bankruptcy, they were courting these big companies.
Mike Papantonio: Talk about it. It’s unbelievable that people, first of all, it would be companies that had caused real harm to people. Okay. It was loss of life. It was injuries of all horrible kinds. And so there’s this one, actually at least one that we’re gonna talk about, there’s more of ’em. But there’s one judge that had a friend who worked for the defense industry, right? She was the go-to. Well, no, it was a little more than that. It was like a love affair if you follow the story.
Andy Birchfield: That’s right.
Mike Papantonio: These two people had a sexual relationship going on. The judge would get these cases in and rubber stamp ’em. Yes, Mr. Corporation, you can go bankrupt. Hell with all those people who died. Hell with all those people who were injured. I have a love affair with this woman. I’m not even gonna disclose, but I’m gonna give the seal of approval. That’s what happened, isn’t it?
Andy Birchfield: Yeah. That’s what we’re seeing reported.
Mike Papantonio: And so that’s where J&J now want to go. That sounds like home to them. That sounds like a good place for them to go. Right? Isn’t that kind of what the story is?
Andy Birchfield: Yeah. And the whole goal behind the Texas Two Step is to do exactly what you’re talking about. It is to keep the victims out of court, away from juries, so that they are just languishing there. They cannot, they cannot have their day in court, and they’re just left there. So the company says, you either take our pennies on the dollar offer, or we’re just going to wait you out. And we’ve seen that play out in these North Carolina, Texas Two Steps with the asbestos. The first was filed in 2017. Pap, not a single plaintiff, not a single victim, has been paid a dime, a dime, in seven years.
Mike Papantonio: Wow.
Andy Birchfield: And they’re just, the ghoul defense. That’s it.
Mike Papantonio: I’m glad they think that we’re just gonna go away. I actually disclosed to them, I don’t know if I told you this, Andy, but I disclosed to them that we had hired a private invest, couple of private investigators that were calling the bankruptcy facility. Explain what the bankruptcy facility is.
Andy Birchfield: So what J&J’s doing with this, with their third bankruptcy attempt is what’s called a pre-packaged bankruptcy. So the first two, they never could get to a vote. That’s what they wanted. They wanted to try to stuff the ballot box. They wanted to roll this out. They formed alliances with a number of firms. They gathered up cases that are not supported by the science, other types of cancers and other injuries that could vote.
Mike Papantonio: Well, let me get to that. Okay. So, they were supposed to call into this facility, run by a company called.
Andy Birchfield: Right.
Mike Papantonio: And they were supposed to call into that facility and say, hey, do I have a case? And then they were told, okay, what to do after you’re told that you might have a case, go get a ballot and vote for our bankruptcy. That’s kind of what happened.
Andy Birchfield: That’s it. So J&J was looking to get a 75% vote, the threshold to be able to get what they’re looking for in bankruptcy so that a judge could, in Texas, could rubber stamp their bankruptcy. If they got the 75% vote. They had to get the 75% vote. And that’s what your investigator was doing.
Mike Papantonio: What they didn’t know is that we had an investigator that would call in. And the documents are incredible. I mean, when the court sees these documents and says, well, you ought to go take some discovery, take some depositions, and get behind it. We had people that were planted people calling into the facility saying, hey, I was around Johnson & Johnson powder for about a month, and now I have cancer in my nose, or cancer of esophagus. And the people would say, well call, go ahead and go online and get your ballot and vote for this bankruptcy.
Andy Birchfield: Oh, wow.
Mike Papantonio: There’s no connection whatsoever to the injury. It doesn’t cause nose cancer or, it doesn’t cause that kind of thing. They know that. The only kind of cancer we’re even focused on is the ovarian cancer. Right? I mean, at this point.
Andy Birchfield: That’s right.
Mike Papantonio: And so, it was a fraud. These people didn’t even understand the questions that they were being asked, but they were always saying, look, you need to go get a ballot and you need to vote for this bankruptcy. Right?
Andy Birchfield: Wow. That’s just another layer of really bad conduct, Pap. What they did to start with just by calling for votes for these, for other cancers was bad enough. They’re offering them this $1,500 quick pay. And what is that designed to do? That’s designed to get.
Mike Papantonio: Get numbers up.
Andy Birchfield: To get the numbers up. They’re paying this hundreds of dollars to buy votes so that they can vote out, vote out unreasonable low values for the truly serious injured folks.
Mike Papantonio: Yeah. And people who are dying of ovarian cancer in a horrible, horrible death. This described, ovarian cancer, death by ovarian cancer is described as one of the worst suffering a woman can go through. And by doing this, they’ve taken money away from the people that should be paid and running it through this scam. Isn’t that kinda what happened here?
Andy Birchfield:: Yeah. Pap, that’s something I think is so important for folks to understand. What happens with a woman when she’s diagnosed with ovarian cancer? What does the family see? What do they go through? Diagnosis of cancer, we know how awful that can be. But when a woman is diagnosed with ovarian cancer, it’s usually in the late stages, stage three, stage four. One of the first things that they will do is a debulking surgery. So they will go in and they will take out many of the internal organs, the reproductive organs, but others that are impacted by that cancer, that debulking surgery. Then the women will go through rounds of chemotherapy. I mean, awful debilitating chemotherapy. And they may through that process go into remission for a short while, maybe a few years, and then the cancer returns. But most often, the women will die. The women will die as a result of starvation. All of the scar tissue that results from that debulking surgery that was necessary to extend their life, that scar tissue causes blockage, bowel obstructions, and the women die of starvation, just like you described. It is an awful, awful death.
Mike Papantonio: Yeah. Well, it’s not awful enough for the folks at Johnson & Johnson to be a little human. Can you imagine being the person that’s making the decision? No, we’ve known about this. Our own scientists told us back in the seventies, this stuff’s gonna kill people. Do something about it. Their own research was showing this stuff is going to kill people and they kept it out there anyway. As a matter of fact, they moved, when they found out it was gonna kill people, you know what they started doing? They started marketing to African-American women. Their new target was African-American women. Let’s see how much we can sell. Andy, all I can do is tell you the names that are running up here, these lawyers, they are people that right now are, they’re the line in the sand between this kind of corrupt corporate activity and people not having any kind of avenue. Government’s not gonna do anything about it.
Andy Birchfield: Right.
Mike Papantonio: Regulators obviously didn’t do anything about it. The media kept it quiet forever. Why? Because of advertising dollars. So if these guys don’t prevail and we don’t prevail on what we’re doing, it becomes a new way of doing business. So, anyway.
Andy Birchfield: We stand as a line of defense against this type of corporate abuse that makes all of us, all of us in greater danger. If companies can get by, by using bankruptcy and destroying our civil justice system, then we’re helpless.
Mike Papantonio: Yeah. Andy, thank you for joining me. Let’s keep the fight up. Okay.
Andy Birchfield: Alright. Thank you.
